Why are American cars so badly designed?

Luke Smith
5

Asked by Luke Feb 16, 2009 at 12:24 PM

Question type: General

178 Answers

Chase Sutherland
3,985

i dont think they are. i think they are the best built cars on the road

2 out of 2 people think this is helpful.
Bo Henriksen
45

If you think that American cars are the best build cars on the road, you obviously haven't driven a european or japanese car.

3 out of 3 people think this is helpful.
Chase Sutherland
3,985

Actually my gf drives mazdas and nissans only so i would drive her mazdaspeed protege around and her 350z. loved both cars btw. and i test drove multiple bmws and mercedes before buying my last car but found them to have too little trorque. and no i didnt drive the kompressors or m series. but a brand new camaro and mustang shelby for price wont be touched by an other car. and it you want to go high end then bust out a viper or z06 vette. and luxury there is lincoln and cadillac.

Luke Smith
5

You are picking out a select few cars over a spread of God knows how many. What I am getting at is a general look at cars, true some North Am are good, same goes for many European or Japanese ones that are bad. But overall cars in North Am are the weakest. When you look at practicality and bang for your buck they are just behind. They are starting to see the light but they, for now, remain weak in comparison

Chase Sutherland
3,985

i have to disagree. ive seen many imports be complete garbage also. as many imports are bad as american cars are bad. bang for the buck comparison...there are a lot of american cars under $20k that will give you good reliability and dont look bad. i mean personally i would rather drive a chevy cobalt that is reliable and gets great mileage then some toyota/honda/vw for the same price that people think is a good car but performance wise is exactly the same as the chevy. its personal preference i suppose but i dont see any imports that are better then american cars. some cost more but in what way are they better?

2 out of 2 people think this is helpful.
Jacob Fraser
765

compared to kia, hyundai...and god knows how many other forigen cars that are not even good enough to pass north american safety standards... i think they are pretty good!

Simon Rogers
55

They're not really badly designed, just designed differently. For example, most US cars have large engines but with low BHP. However, the torque and gear ratios mean that they are perfect for the long roads with little strain on the engine or drivetrain. However, I cannot excuse the quality of the plastics that are used on the interior. As a general rule, they are very low grade.

2 out of 2 people think this is helpful.
Jin Hoo
135

Kia and Hyundai's don't deserve to be mentioned in at all, being Korean crap and on the bottom rung of the automobile industry, along with anything from China. When we say "car maker" we really only mean anything from North America, Europe or Japan. Obviously a non-import would be cheaper, but aside from the obvious, imports have artificially inflated prices. http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/car-guide-2004/domestic-import1.asp http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3012/is_12_183/ai_111617036/

Fred McClelland
1,895

american cars are made horribly cheap! i dont know how many trim pieces ive seen break on any of the american vehicles. And they are all way over priced for what you get compared to japan and europe. Bang for the buck how can you beat either the Subaru Sti or the Mitsubishi Evo? oh course your gonna say that the Evo is not reliable and they both have no torque but i bet you have never test driven one. Go read a car and driver about when they tested the ZR1 corvette...they said for the price that it wasnt up to par with its class at all. They knock on the interior like crazy including the Malibu steering wheel. All i can say is Nissan GT-R...better looking just as fast. ALOT more technologically advanced and plus it was 30k less then the ZR1 how can you beat that? Especially since the SpecV is coming to the Green hell soon so we will see whos faster around those corners.

1 out of 1 people think this is helpful.
Fred McClelland
1,895

oh and also why the hell do you have to measure practically ever aspect of the brakes and suspension on GM trucks? Its like they have 27 options and once you measure the thing inside and out they still want body codes from like napa or carquest? And when you call the dealer the price is well over double it should be?

Chase Sutherland
3,985

lol ok well the comparison i read had the ZR1 ahead of the dodge viper, a lambo, and mercedes sl63 amg. the ZR! won the contest so take your GT-R and shove it. i dont know where you article is but i think your making it up. i like the GT-R but to put it in the same class as a ZR1 is an insult. and youre completely wrong about not driving one of those cars. my friend has a stage 1 turbo in his 04 wrx. its faster than a stock STI and ive drove that plenty. but guess what. heres a little fact you might not have known: subaru transmissions on the regualr wrx take a dump after about 1 year of pushing 300+ hp. sounds really reliable to me yeah great cars. do some research and then talk. the evo is a mistu so wake up and fix it. oh and heres the link to the caranddriver article that says the ZR1 is the best. try not to talk out your ass next time so you dont get embarrased like this again http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison_test/coupes/corvette_zr1_vs_sl65_amg_black_series_murcielago_lp640_viper_srt10_comparison_test+page-5.html

1 out of 1 people think this is helpful.
Danny Wang
2,505

In terms of appearance, I think they have lost its uniqueness and are beginning to look like other vehicles. I think the plastic quality could be better. Otherwise, I do not think that they are by all means perfect, but they are not as bad as I would think. Just my opinions...............

Luke Smith
5

When you talk about costs etc... Like someone said, "imports" are artificially inflated. I bet if you get into price compared to cost of living, an Americain car in North Am compared to European car in Europe, you would maybe be surprised what you can get for your money. And safety standards, come on!!!! In England there is a yearly test to make sure cars are road safe called an MOT. Because many cars considered safe over here, do not pass. You get much safer cars on the second hand market.

Fred McClelland
1,895

i dont think it was that article though. And the dodge viper acr was faster around the nurburgring then the zr1 and fit and finish the mercedes is a lot better styled car. and i didnt say that the evo was anything but a mitsu maybe you should take hooked on phonics and learn how to read first. And i know all about the wrx probably more then you do. and the trannys dont go unless you dont tune the car right and put way to much boost.

Luke Smith
5

And if you thrash it like you think you are an F1 driver or something. some people buy cars with extra power/turbos etc.. and think yey!! race everywhere

Chase Sutherland
3,985

actually if anybdoy needs a reading course it would be yourself. nowhere in my post did i state you said the evo was anything but a mistu. all i said was that its a mistu so wake up and fix it. and the styling is all opinion. some people say camaros look better than the STI but some say differently so you can throw that out the window. and my entire point was that the ZR1 vette beat the viper, mercedes, and lambo in a car and driver article where you said car and driver called it bad. and i bet you do know more about subarus than i do but not more than my friend who is the owner of one. he got everything professionally tuned and did some work with the people himself. he is selling the car because of notorious tranny problems on the wrx after being upgraded over 300 hp. so next time before you rip american cars make sure you get all the facts straight. oh and do you realize how many camrys and civics you see out there with busted plastic pieces just like you said some american cars have? a japanese car is no better than any american car and no european car is worth the extra cash only to crap out before 200k miles

Chase Sutherland
3,985

the cars are more safe? what are you 50 with grandchildren? heres an idea...dont wreck

Luke Smith
5

let me guess, you are 12 and think that unless a car goes 0-60 in less than one sec it aint worth considering. theres more to a car than 200,00bhp

Chase Sutherland
3,985

nope 22. old cars are safe if you wear your seatbelt. all they new airbags and stuff really dont make a huge difference. people lived through horrible accidents back n the 60s and 70s by wearing their seatbelts. im not saying air bags dont help im just saying these new safety standards are worthless and way over played. and if i wanted to go fast i wouldnt buy a car. i would buy a motorcycle which i did. now theres one product the imports have a clearly better product in. cars no

Luke Smith
5

think we losing site of the point tho. Im talking safe car as in road worthy, not crumple zones or 25 airbags. I mean more how its held together etc... You would never be allowed a car with any rust to main structure in europe or say holes in floor etc... Thats more what I was thinking of

Chase Sutherland
3,985

oh ok. well if thats the case then toyota and mazda should be considered for worst safe wise along with jeep. but ill agree i dont see many rusted european cars. it could be that the owners of those cars typically put them in garages though and wash them on a weely basis keeping all the salt off the body. if you spend a lot on those cars then odds are they will be better maintained.

Adam Morgan
4,205

This is obviously a pot stirring question. Every make and model has it's pros and cons and they all break. It's a matter of preference and which car fits you better. It's odd people will trash the American brands but there Euro and Asian counterparts (rebadged vehicles) do well in other countries where they don't have the low cost benefits that they enjoy here? Pontiac sucks but Holden is awesome? Chevy is utterly worthless but Opels are good cars for the price? Ford are crap but Mazda makes a quality car? Yeah Fuji, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and others make decent cars and fit a specific corner of the market, but so do their American competitors. If they didn't people wouldn't buy them.

Luke Smith
5

Yeah I can agree with you there, it does come down to wats if living and peoples attitudes towards cars. Also I think there are some fake "imports" such as toyota or some mazda that are built over here.\ I had a VW Gti Vr6 when 1st moved here, thought it would be great with its 2.8l, but found out most Vw are built in Mexico and obviouosly dont have the standards of germany built ones. In europe I always knew them as reliable cars, over here I got laughed at.

Luke Smith
5

I think american cars only appear cheap, because in europe wages are considerably higher and so is cost of living, so cars there would seem pricey on wages here

Chase Sutherland
3,985

yeah i will never buy a VW because they break all the time. at least from seeing my friend go through 2 in 2 years and my oter friend have his for only 3 months

Jacob Fraser
765

dont forget the toyota cavalier they had out for a couple years :P

Jin Hoo
135

Ooooooooooo he just said the taboo line. "and if i wanted to go fast i wouldnt buy a car. i would buy a motorcycle which i did." We all know that bikes go faster in a straight line, but really, don't bring it up. We try to pretend that we're unaware about that around here.

Rodger Metry
5

Living in Australia we have a very limited access to American cars..but from what i have seen the Big Three need to pick up on build & interior finish. We get the Jeep Range with the odd Dodge & Chrysler product. I must say 300C is 6 out of 10 let down by build ind interior quality the big Jeep's is are the same as 300C BUT the so called COMPACT models ars a lot to be desired..I sampled the Dodge Avenger, Chrysler Sebring (YUK) & the compact Jeeps apart from the Sebring were ok BUT let down by lame build Quality & horrible interiors. I ended up buying my wife a 2009 Mitsubishi VRX But I am ordering for myself A 6.2 litre Holden Commodore Clubsport or a 300C SRT8 there is nothing quite like a V8!! PS 60's American cars rule we had a 1966 Dodge Charger in the family from 1968 to 1979 in my eyes the PINICAL especially the HEMI 426

Chase Sutherland
3,985

i have the 300C and i love it. im currently in the process of trying to sell it to get the 300C SRT8 version. love those cars. jeeps do have a pretty basic interior but its a jeep. i mean when i tihnk jeep i tihnk of the wrangler and leaving the top off with the doors off and taking it through a mud hole and just spraying it with water interior included to get it clean haha.

Chase Sutherland
3,985

lol yeah a Z06 vette is right on with the GT-R youre right. they are about the same price tag too. the driver would determine the winner fo the race not the car. now go ahead and grab a ZR1. the ZR1 runs exactly even with the lambo. and go check out the tricked out stangs that have the IRS setup and not the cheap V6 and GT models. they continually win competitions against japanese and european imports. and cheapness of a japanese car? where do you live? american cars brand new in the same class cost the same if not less. repairs are far more less costly also. european cars i like but bang for the buck no way. tell me one thing a euro car gets me a lincoln or cadillac doesnt. my dream car is a porsche actually. but saying american cars are garbage or poorly designed in garbage talk. and cant do math? odds are i know more about mathematics than you will possibly ever dream of. and all this coming from a guy who owns a 94 5-series who previsouly had a 94 3-series. how come with the amazing qualities of these new german and japanese cars you havent upgraded yet? i mean even the 04 5-series are cheap now

Brad Zimmerman
35

Uh...yea the GT-R will keep up with lambo's...better yet maybe we're thinking different lambo's, and I live on the east coast, and yea my old BMW's were $5000, expensive right? i mean all those repairs lol, and maybe some of us are a little younger and are still in college, don't have daddy's support mr. mathematician...LOL sure yes you know all about me. Now when you say Americans are beating the japs are you talking drag racing?

Adam Morgan
4,205

GT-R can keep up with the ZR1, but currently has major reliability issues... Yeah the initial cost ain't bad, but your first $20,000 transmission will change your mind on the GT-R. They designed the tranny for less power than the engine develops and then gave it too much traction to where the tranny really isn't designed to take the kind of shock loading the car develops in spirited driving. Ohh... and the ZR1 makes it's numbers without doing things that void the warranty. The GT-R is significantly slower than the advertised times when you don't 'push the magic button' that insta-voids the warranty. In a couple of years it'll be a much better car once they've had dev. time on tweaking the drivetrain issues. However, it'll likely cost more then, we'll see. Also many American cars are competitive in Autocross as well mate. Standings for SCCA Road Rally by manufacturer. http://www.scca.com/documents/rrPTSManufacturer2008.pdf Hell look at the fastest Stock FWD lap time around the green hell. I'll give you a hint 8:23

1 out of 1 people think this is helpful.
Chase Sutherland
3,985

actually i just graduated last may and im 22 years old still. in college i paid for everything myself. well i take that back. my parents bought some food for me when they could afford to. and being a college student i would never put down what a person drives because i understand how hard it was but nobody should be bragging up this car and that car when they drive some old car way way past its prime. and when i say american cars are beating japanese miports im saying in drag racing, sometimes drifting leagues, and other professional races. theres certain things certain countries are much better than tohers at and car building isnt one that america loses in. motorcycles america is behind. articecture america is behind. automobiles america is as good if not better than any other country

Chase Sutherland
3,985

i should have been mroe specific for these guys. i was taking times without pressing the "warranty "void button as i like to call it. it runs 3.9 then 0-60 mph and 12s for the quarter. right on par with the Z06 but not close to the ZR1.

Chase Sutherland
3,985

wow did i really just type articecture?!?!? lol that was bad. i meant architecture

Joseph Rota
255

it's because everything (except for trucks) is unibody now, with too much crappy plastic on the body and everywhere else, but japanese cars have the worst metal.

Bryan Keates
15

beacuse there too buisy paying thre ceo's 20 million and there 4 desingers like 40 k a year lol Stupid company i hope they go under GM BLows

Ben Aghajanian
35

In reference to what respects? Style? Ergonomics?

Chase Sutherland
3,985

GM will never go under. they own way too many car companies. GM has some of the best cars made like Cadillac, Hummer, Chevy, buick, and saab. they own more but not that great of cars. and their CEO got canned. they are back on the right path again

Bryan Keates
15

GM WILL GO UNDER BUDDY

Adam Richard
0

Wanna get the job done and finished. Don't care about the quality just money.

Sean Ochosky
55

Personally, i hate domestic cars. They've been building some terrible products for quite a long time now, and deserve to be in the position they're in as of now. I'm happy to see that Ford was smart enough to clue in before the other 2 domestic companies. I'd never buy a Ford, but at least the people in charge there were bright enough to see that the markets were beginning to change, and the competition was catching up fast. They've introduced some vehicles (maybe not aesthetically pleasing) that not only have great fuel economy, but actually have decent build quality and fit and finish. They clued in at the right time. Its too bad the others were too slow. The main problem i see with General Motors is that they have WAY too many models. In the 20 years Saturn was around, it never once made an actual PROFIT for the company. I'm glad to see they're beginning to phase out these branches. Hummer is slowly killing them further as we speak, and Cadillac is bringing them problems too. If we look at the Cadillac line, the only real success stories would be the Escalade and the CTS. Gm desperately needs to get rid of all the extra and duplicate models. And being a Canadian..If they got Rid of GMC, we wouldn't miss it. As you can probably tell, I do love import vehicles. I work at a Premium Pre-Owned dealership, so i've had the opportunities to drive a large variety of vehicles. Having this sort of experience with all these vehicles has given me a first eye view on the vehicles these companies make. I love the driving aspects BMW seems to put into all their vehicles. Once you drive a 645CI, you'll never look at a vehicle in that class the same. BMW's have such refined driving mannerisms, but also have beautifully finished interiors (even if they all do seem to look the same). They're not always the most reliable, but they're still well built vehicles. Most people may say Toyota is probably the most dependable and reliable car company at this time. For many of their vehicles, this is probably the case. But from what i've seemed to notice, they slipped a little bit in the past 3-4 years. They were probably focusing on getting ahead of Ford and those other companies, that they forgot about their original DNA. I don't know about you, but i'm certainly not impressed with the interior fit and finish on my dads 07 Camry XLE V6. He isn't either. We're at the point where we really miss our old Maxima now, which was one of the best vehicles we've ever owned. Its probably one of the main reasons I love Nissan/Infiniti so much, and why i drive a Nissan myself. Nissan in the past hasn't been known for building the most reliable vehicles, but its really started to change. The majority of their vehicles are quite amazing. Models like the new Altima/Altima Coupe, Maxima, 350Z/370Z, Rogue, Murano, and surprisingly the updated Titan are proving to be very reliable. Most people will probably disagree, and thats fine, but i really think that Nissan builds some of the greatest vehicles on the road today. They seem to effortlessly blend the aspects of Reliability, and even luxury, with the joys of performance. Its one thing toyota and honda are failing to do, although both of those companies make great cars as well. I'm hoping the best for GM and Chrysler, and if they do survive, i'm praying they'll smarten up and start changing the bad habits they've become so familiar with. If they do...i may eventually find myself as an owner of a domestic vehicle.

Adam Richard
0

I wouldn't be so quick to speak. A Pathfinder we had NEVER had any problems within the 5 years we owned it (it was a 2001) but when we got a BRAND NEW Chevy Colorado it left us stranded in less than a year. Tranny went at 30,00 KMS not miles. Never beaten on either!

Bryan Keates
15

"Well said

Sean Ochosky
55

I don't recall ever saying nissan made bad vehicles lol. I'm a nissan guy! But i neglected the Pathfinder in that small list i had because the current model year seemed to miss the mark a little bit. I have no doubt that past Pathfinder models were beyond reliable. My aunt had a ghetto style 2 door pathfinder that survived 400 000kms and never once gave them a problem.

Adam Richard
0

no there was somene before but deleted the post!

Sean Ochosky
55

oh my apologies. I didn't even notice

Khalid Zineddin
55

I think it's very sad the way the American auto industry has come in the past 40 years or so. I can tell you I own (as my FIRST CAR) a 1970 Plymouth Duster with a 5.2L V-8, and the engineering is AMAZING for that time period. There was NO other car company in the world at that time that designed cars in such an effective way; and by effective I mean advanced but SIMPLE technology. My Duster is built like a tank and is over 17 feet long but weighs only 3000 lbs, less than most compact cars today. And in the performance version you could get a 350-hp 5.6L V-8 that with the right trans/gearing setup would push you down into the 13's in a 1/4-mile race, which is fast even by today's standards. Don't forget the ingenious front torsion bar/rear offset leafspring setup which was unlike anything in the industry at the time. Also, when maintained properly the 3.7 "slant" 6 and 5.2L (318) V-8's were known to last well over 200,000 miles. What happened to that quality and performance? Well, it started when the managers and bean-counters started caring more about making a quick million than a slow billion, and that's where we are today. Will the industry change? I don't know, but what I DO know is that car companies like Chrysler Corp. have the potential to do great again. After all, they did design and engineer the Saturn V rocket that took the astronauts to the moon and countless other HUGELY successful military and commercial vehicles. Until the American auto industry gets its head out of its ass I will keep driving my 40-year-old American iron that was built when cars were MADE TO LAST.

Rainer Pansch
65

because we ,americans, grow up playing games our whole lives, and get by with the least amount of effort. This is a direct reflection of our workfoce and their expectations.

Chase Sutherland
3,985

haha ok and what possibly makes you think that? do you honestly believe the president or congress will let americas largest car company go under and make us reliant upon imports? yeah well neither do i. if any company goes under it will be dodge/chrysler not GM

Chase Sutherland
3,985

i have to disagree about fuel consumption when it comes to GM and Chrysler with you over the paqst few years. did you know that the 2008 Chevy Corvette Z06 gets 28-29 mpg with 505 hp? since 1998 when they started with the LS series engine all the cars they put that engine in have got mid to high 20s in fuel consumption. trucks are trucks they really arent suppose to get much more than 20 mpg. not even the foreign trucks do. and GM was al so the FIRST company to create a full size suv hybrid too. and Chrysler remade their 5.7 HEMI in 2005 to be equipped with MDS which makes it run on fewer cyclinders allowing it to still make 345 hp but also get up to 25 mpg in a car and 18 mpg in their trucks. and this last year they remade it again and it now gets 22 mpg in their trucks making 390 hp now. they have been trying ot make the change to better fuel consumption but people still think honda and toyota beat them when in reality its not the case anymore. also, how much is a 645i? isnt the 6-series the most expensive bmw on the market? there arent really any american cars for that price range in that category is there?

Chase Sutherland
3,985

the colorado has been nothing but problems for GM. i would never buy one and i like GM a lot.

Eric Santana
45

The reason why GM is in such a big hole is because they have all of those different divisions and they are becoming over inflated. You have the American Branch, which has the most divisions, and the Eastern Hemisphere, which are remodels of the American Division like Opel and in Europe and Chevys in The Caribbean on Opel Chassis, or is it the other way around... can't tell any more. When GM started to ask the Feds for help they wanted to get rid of Hummer, Particularly the H2, a mistake from the day it hit the road in 1999. But nobody wants it and for good reason too. Now that GM filed Chapter 11, they want to dismantle Pontiac and Saturn. If GM isn't pulled out of the huge hole they are in they will be filing for bankruptcy by the end of May. If GM is not going to go under, someone needs to pick them and I doubt that the Feds will.

Bryan Keates
15

Hey chase hate to ruin youre day But the facts are GM makes trash vehicles and now there paying the price it looks good on them. And they will go under all these govenment bailouts arnt going to save them and never is there new VOLT What was wrong with the first electric car the EV1 Oh i forgot that they had them all destroyed cause there controlled by big oil companies. THEY WILL GO UNDER CHASE!!!

Chase Sutherland
3,985

lol bryan jsut because you type in all caps doesnt make you any more right then you were before. and tell me what all these trash cars are they made in the past 5 years. you might find a couple but every car company makes a few rotten eggs. you keep thinking they will get shut down but the fact of the matter is they are the largest car company in north america and there is no way we are going to allow them to go under. it wuold create a dependency on foreign cars which will take away jobs frmo us citizens and thats the exact opposite strategy obama took when going into office. sorry man. you can type in caps all day but you still wont be right

Chase Sutherland
3,985

the H2 was a great vehicle the day it came out and was still be drove around until the oil prices went sky high. people are starting to buy them again and i see mroe on the roads everyday now. ive actually been looking at my friends and thought about buying it. they are great machines

Paco Ibarra
55

Most people here just don't get the question. He didn't ask which car is faster, he didn't said European or Japanese cars were better, he asked "Why are American cars so BADLY DESIGNED" I can concur that by that he means Why american cars feel so cheap, have poor quality and most of them are ugly (Lack of design). First of all, it's not just because of the american automakers poor money administration, it is also because of the stupidly high cost of manufacture here in the US. We all think that we are worth a lot more money than we really deserve. Most people that works for the auto industry in assembly plants have no more than high school but they still want to make more than 50K and their "Unions" will make sure they get paid what they ask. That raises the cost of production forcing the manufacturers to make the cars very easy to assemble so they can put together more cars in the least time. Also instead of spending more money in the DESIGN CENTERS and pay the people who actually went to schools to DESIGN better looking cars instead of the generic "Malibu, Taurus, Impala, etc", They have to spend the money in the manufacture process. So they literally FORCE the designers to come up with something that looks "good" according to the executives (Who know shit about design, and only know about how to put more money on their pockets). As a fact, american cars that are actually better built and/or have better quality like the Corvette (and they even have some terrible flaws) cost so much money to produce than Chevrolet actually doesn't make any money out the Corvettes, hence why GM executives tried to kill the vette so many times. I have a 2000 Corvette, I love the car but I agree, the interior quality is GARBAGE, the assembly gaps are horrible, everything rattles, the leather is cheap, the seats are crap.. I can keep going. I've seen so many Cadillacs (which I really like) with the same quality problems, cheap materials, cheap plastic with "wood look alike" print. Not to mention how fast they wear out, reason why older late 90's Cadillacs are worth nothing now. The seats tear apart, the door handles rip in pieces, the plastic cracks etc... On the other hand I have a 1992 Subaru SVX and the interior is perfect, has over 150k miles and the drivers seat shows some wear on the leather, but everything else is as good as new, it doesn't rattle, everything works and looks good. American cars are crap because of the american people. Because the manufacturers, assembly workers and designers wont take pride on their jobs and on their cars, they just want to make more money, one of the reasons why our economy sucks. We are part of the problem, so we have to fix the problem.

Paco Ibarra
55

Yeah, GM has been doing several mistakes lately, but the answer is not shutting them down. You DON'T want that to happen, GM and the rest of the american automakers are a big part of "why the US is such a big powerful country" if they shut down get ready for a huge economic recession millions of unemployed people, and yet no way to pay the bailout money so that would give us even more debt. What they need to do is stop making garbage cars, pay the RIGHT amount of money to their executives AND labor force, pay better to the designer and engineers that develop the cars to give them better quality, better fuel efficiency, make them last longer and make them look good. (more like european and japanese car makers do) And we need to start buying american cars too, of course, first they have to improve their product.

Paco Ibarra
55

I understand what you mean, but you have to remember that reliability is not based on how far can you modify your car without breaking it. Yeah STis trannys brake apart but they are not meant to do that. Same with LS1 Camaros with the 4L60 auto tranny that keeps breaking if you bump the HPs over 400HP. Now, if you've been inside your friends STi or WRX and inside a Cobalt take a deep look at the quality the materials, the size of the gaps on the dashboard and it's panels, the door handles plastic, the overall feel and you'll see that even the Subaru having a "cheap looking" and simple interior the quality is way better, the car feels more solid, and that goes for Hondas, Mitsubishi, BMW, etc. Pay attention to the door panels, the materials used on american and imports and you'll see the difference of the cheap plastic with only one screw to hold everything together on the american cars and the ones with more clips, screws and attachment points used in imports, with better materials, and vinyl lining instead of a textured plastic panel.

Eric Santana
45

To Chase: Ive Been reading your posts, and apparently the only thing you can relate to is American Vehicles. The Hummer was a hit when it came out, 2 years after, it was another car on the road. Not a lot of hipe for it now. MAIN REASON why GM wants to kill it and for the past 4 years they've been trying, only now its a lot more public. American technology in design has gotten worst ever since the first American car was built. A Vette or a Stang from the 60's have WAY MORE better quality in interior products than they do now. Thats a General fact. A REALLY good example is right here in my home. I drive an 08' Scion xB and my Mom drives an 07' Chevy Suburban LTZ. My car has 21,000 miles, and the Chevy has 15,000 miles. I drive like a lot of young folk drive, completely the opposite of my Mom. Even though I maintain and clean both cars, the Chevy has a lot more wear and tear inside and out the my xB... My car has MORE miles and is driven more roughly than the Suburban. Weather stripping is the main problem on the Chevy, and wood grains scratch easily. The steering wheel has a special coating and its PEELING OFF!!!! The headlights are already getting fogged lenses!!!!! This SUV its 2 years Old!!!! My xB, doesn't even have half of those problems. By the way, Toyotas are a lot more user friendly vehicles because almost every part of the car that would need to be fixed or replaced in the future is very easily accessible. Good luck with American Cars, particularly GM. I would have to say that if you are going to get an American car, get a Dodge or a Chrysler. GM is not worth it anymore. To Luis: I completely Agree

Paco Ibarra
55

Dodge/Chrysler are as bad as GM and Ford, The full size Durango had one of the crappiest interiors I've ever seen, and the 300/Magnum/Charger cars share that simple ugly and cheap quality. The only american cars that are actually worth the money are the sports cars. The SRT-8 series, the Corvettes, the Cadillac V series and the top of the line Mustangs, and just because of their performance. Mopar is being cheap since the late 70's, the Neon is such a piece of work quality wise.... They are all crap. Lol.

Eric Santana
45

Let me specify: I meant HD vehicles and the sport cars. But even the vettes are lacking...

Chase Sutherland
3,985

i currently own a chrysler and love it actually. but chrysler is sitting worse than GM. buying a car from them could end up having no warranty in a short time if they go under. and i still dont understand where you guys are coming from saying hondas and toyotas are so much better built. my friends all drive imports basically. i stick to american. the toyota ive rode in had the interior dash fall aprt as well as speakers blow or start rattling. none of my cars (not even my 80s camaros) did that. my other friends honda has electrical problems in her 96 accord. my gf had a nissan 350z that was taken back to the dealership 3 times for eletrcial problems. im not saying american cars are leaps and bounds ahead of any other import but from every miport ive seen, drove, or ridden in they are better in no such way then an american built car.

Chase Sutherland
3,985

the 300C with the 5.7L hemi is a very nice built car. its in no way cheap at all. and the neon is def a pos minus the srt4 model. and american trucks are better than any other truck out there. no foreign truck can touch an american built truck

Chase Sutherland
3,985

the vette is one of the best performing vehicles in the entire world and is THE best for the price.

Eric Santana
45

Hondas Having electrical problems? WTF..... thats the first time Ive heard of that. lol. Now for a Euro, thats normal. but Hondas? Your not talking to idiots bro, so cut the crap.

Eric Santana
45

Exactly that, JUST performance, not looks, American trucks are deff the way to go. Dodge Rams

Chase Sutherland
3,985

dead serious. i think its a steering column issue myself. some sort of problem with the wipers and headlights. and her speakers cut in and out well the ones that still work anyways

Paco Ibarra
55

Those are isolated problems. I bet that car with the dashboard falling apart just explode by itself, or the speakers blew out by themselves?? That's user abuse and can't be taken as a point of comparison. I've seen mint 80's camaros as I've seen the all trashed too, and that's not a matter of quality, again is user abuse. Electrical problems?? American cars are famous for having electrical problems in the air conditioning, windows, engine sensors, ECU. Not because your girlfriend's 350Z had problems means all 350Z do, as I fact I can tell electrical problems are not one of the import's problems. Stop thinking in what happened to you and your friends only and open your mind to what the people who had all kinds of cars have to say. If you're friends drive a POS honda doesn't mean all hondas are crap.

Chase Sutherland
3,985

never said they all are. i said earlier every car company has rotten eggs. i just pointed out in my experience those were some problems ive seen. and my gf loves nissans (shes owned 7) but she continually shows me reports of electrical problems in certain models. 350Z being one of them. most honda dont have that problem though i agree. but saying most american cars do is just as dumb.

Paco Ibarra
55

Here's an example: this are the window controls of a 300C (srt-8, or base model, same for magnums and charger) you can see the Tupperware plastic quality, the textured Rubermaid plastic used around. http://l.yimg.com/dv/izp/chrysler_300_srt_8_2008_interior_doorcontrols.jpg Now look at a Honda Accord base model, semi textured plastic with a soft rubber feel to the touch, pleather lining all in one piece made exclusively for the accord instead of the one size fits all used on the Dodge http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/vehicle-pictures/2009/honda/accord/5804-040-driver-side-window-control-480.jpg

Chase Sutherland
3,985

look at the styling of the new camaro ss, shelby mustang, 300C, super bee charger, or any vette ever. all look amazing. and the interior quality and appearance of any cadillac and lincolns are also amazing. you keep tihnking of the garbage saturn puts out or some interior styling of a 90s camaro. those were ugly. like i said earlier there are rotten eggs in all car companies. some american cars are bad yes but so are some imports

Chase Sutherland
3,985

lmao...this is your example? i love the way my 300C interior looks. clean cut and looks jsut as nice as the hondas. soft rubber feel? i dont want rubber feel in my cars anywhere

Paco Ibarra
55

Again, performance has nothing to do with quality. I have a 2000 corvette. I've taken apart everything from the dashboard to the body panels and everything inside is cheap, i have TONS of electrical problems, that are COMMON for the Corvettes, power seats, sensors, AC, too long to mention all, but hell yeah it's fast as hell and gives me great mileage, but that's GM's best car, the cheaper models have all those same cheap attributes plus they are ugly and have/had terrible engines (at least they improved their engines lately)

Chase Sutherland
3,985

oh and btw if you took both pictures and asked people what one was better the answer would be a 50-50 answer lol. that was the worst example ever man

Paco Ibarra
55

That's just one example kid. But obviously talking to you is like talking to the wall since you don't listen. I'm a car designer and I specialize in interior and ergonomics, I worked at body shops when I was your age, I build my own stuff. I work with Corvettes, BMW M3s, lots of 350Z and G35, and some top end cars. I went to school, I have a degree I have 4 cars right now and I had american, german, japanese, swedish, and italian. So I know the difference between a product with quality and a cheap product. I never said japanese or german are perfect, every car has problems, but american car's problems are just stupidly retarded in comparison. If you prefer to ride inside a Tupperware bowl instead of a nice quality car with no rattling and you "think" that's better, well that's your opinion. But that's not going to make a difference from the reality, and the reality is what the magazines, the car reviews on newspapers, the TV car shows and specially the people who OWNS all kinds of cars have to say. Don't get me wrong, I love the Magnum SRT-8 wagon and I'm looking to get one, but I already know what to expect with the quality.

Paco Ibarra
55

Yeah, that's because most of the people is too stupid to see the difference from a nicely designed and built product and the cheap generic one size fits all product. I don't blame you if you can't tell the obvious differences from the two pics, and that's just a small minor example, so I bet I couldn't give you a larger scale example like car paint quality, corrosion resistance or stuff like that because you just won't get it.

Chase Sutherland
3,985

if youre a car designer what are you doing sitting on facebook talking to a 22 year old "kid" as you put it? and if youre having electrical problems in that vette its because you jsut got a rotten egg. vettes have very few problems. and i dont think my 300C that doesnt make a single sound or my lincoln navigator i had that was silent are better i jsut know they are not worse in any way

Nick Jung
5

detroit's got no gaddamn budget to build a decent-ass car anymore. i hate to say it, but it's most-likely goodbye detroit, hello imports

Paco Ibarra
55

The day you own a vette and you start visiting the corvette forums then you might hear the problems from different owners, electrical problems on the corvette are mainly caused for the lack of a steel body to use as a ground source, so most of the grounding spots tend to sulfate and create problems. That's called researching, you better start doing your homework. I'm sitting here talking to you because I have a good job that allows me to spend my free time in whatever way I want, and I decided to literally waste my time talking to you, but hopefully the people who likes reading objective articles and do research can take something positive out of what I wrote. I'm not saying your 300 is a POS, never intended to say it is crap, at least not now. Remember the Concorde/Intrepid/300M?? Those were "great" cars when they were new, now they are worth nothing because like most Mopar products they are loaded with problems, the paint fades very easy (big problem with Chrysler/Dodge cars) and I really hope that's not the case of your 300 (thanks to Daimler Mercedes improvements)

Paco Ibarra
55

It's sad indeed, but I really hope american cars go back to the right path. They have a lot to learn from european and asian automakers.

Chase Sutherland
3,985

lol if youre going to go that way then toyota and mazda are going to fall flat on their faces. those rust out so quick here in wisconsin compared to any other car ive ever seen. german cars are the best when it comes to being rust resistant

Chase Sutherland
3,985

haha im at work doing th exact same thing. had a presentation to give so thats why i disapeared for a small amount of time. those intrepids/concords/300m cars have always been garbage in my eyes. i hated those cars new haha. it wasnt until just of late that dodge chrysler came back around in my eyes

Brad O'Brien
15

They're trying too hard to compete with the Japanese auto makers, and anyone who is trying to do something which is outside of their area of expertise is bound to fail. Up until the 90's, American cars were the best cars on the road, but since then, the Imports have improved their ability to make an acceptable quality car at a fraction of the cost. The American auto makers started taking a hit, and thus had to try to lower their costs, therefore making their quality suffer. I'd still take an american car over an Import anyday of the week.

Aldo Valdovinos
5

totally agree!! and I mean it.. got both an european and a german SUV's both 4WD, both in the same price range but one is obviously way better than the other. I have a 2009 VW Tiguan TDI 4Motion and a 2009 Equinox LTZ AWD.. now, let's compare... VW: 2.0 TDI engine with 236 lb/ft torque @ 1700 RPM!!!, economy: 45.6 mpg, transmission: 6-speed DSG, rear-view camera, in-dash GPS/DVD/CD changer/satellite radio and dual-zone automatic climate control. Chevrolet: 3.4 SFI engine with 210 lb/ft at 3800 rpm (bigger and weaker.. shame on it), economy: a lame 20 mpg!!, transmission 5-speed automatic (what.. is it year 2000 or what?) and none of the extras of the VW besides the CD changer and satellite radio but hey.. no GPS? just look at the photo..

Luke Midson
0

corvette? 09 dodge challanger? these arnt that bad

Aldo Valdovinos
5

I meant american not european

Brad O'Brien
15

No, they're great cars, but we're talking about just generally speaking, not the high end american cars.

Chase Sutherland
3,985

lol well you cant compare a euro car thats $40k do a $17k american car. obviously one will be cheaper. high end american cars are in the same price category that these euro cars are so they should be comapred. then the german cars are no better then the american cars.

Chase Sutherland
3,985

well im going to go out on a limb but im guessing the VW costs thousands more than an equinox right? and from reviews and previous reliability issues ive seen friends have people would need to pay me to drive a VW

Ben Albert
0

It's because we don't have asian brains! once you go jap you never go back!

Byron Chiu
15

Well, American car design is actually quite beautiful in appearance, but it's the process that put those designs in the market that made it so bad. For the one thing, the American economy is fast-paced and highly-demanding (more like excessively demanding); therefore, manufacturers cannot keep their customers waiting for heavily inspected, precise, and overviewed to make the perfect design. Often times, companies take this the wrong way and begin to make cheaper cars with a poor management strategy to exceed customer satisfaction. Now, if your are talking about the 50's and 60's, American cars were poorly designed because there was no competition except from other domestic vehicles (that often did whatever the other did management-wise). Until the Japanese came in the late 60's, American cars were seen as poory built, insecure vehicles compared to Japan's carefully engineered cars (probably for first impressions). It could also be because of the fact that the voice of the American car industry is slowly losing attention from the audience; companies are just thinking of money over the satisfaction of consumers. When customers complain, the companies put whatever they demanded into their cars or ignore it completely. But then, was it efficient for the customer? Or was it just coloring outside of the lines?

Aldo Valdovinos
5

they're both around 30k man. if you want high-end comparisons then look for example at Lincoln MKZ vs. Audi A4 you'll get the same results: better fuel economy, better transmissions and better equipment in the german cars. when will american cars have a dual-clutch transmission that makes the shift seamlessly in 8 miliseconds? google it Direct-Shift gearbox.. don't tell me that's no better than an american transmission

Aldo Valdovinos
5

the only thing I'm saying is that american engines are so damn big and petrol burning and don't reflect that on the performance, I mean how's that a 2.0 engine can do more than a 3.4? that's engineering!

Sean Ochosky
55

I sure as hell don't know where you pulled those MPG numbers from, but infront of me right now is the December 2008 Issue of Car and Driver, where they pitted the ZO6 vs. ZR1 vs. Z51, and the ZO6 only gets 15mpg city and 24mpg highway. The Z51 with only 436HP still doesn't reach the 28-29mpg you stated. I agree with you that trucks are pretty much meant for a select list of jobs, and don't usually have MPG in mind, but yes, The big three have come up with many ways on improving fuel economy in their trucks. If there is one thing the NA companies can do very well, it would be trucks. And its not totally fair to say GM was the first company to create a full size hybrid SUV, cause in the case of the Escalade Hybrid, its only a two-mode hybrid system. Its like a half assed way of creating an actual hybrid vehicle. And the funny thing is the hybrid Escalade only gets 2-3 MPG more than the regular Escalade does. Nothing to brag about when you're still paying close to $80 000 for the vehicle. Cylinder de-activation was technology brought forth from a company based in Japan. It was sold to the automakers around the world. The only reason the NA companies appeared to introduce the tech sooner is because unlike Honda for example, they didn't take 2 more years in the development stages trying to perfect the system in order to make it as smooth as possible. When you look at reviews of the Domestics that have this system included, you'll notice comments on how you can tell cylinders are being activated and de-activated due to slight shudders. When i mentioned the 645CI i was talking about the vehicle in general, and compared to all other vehicles in its class, no matter what the make may be. And no, the 6 series is the second most expensive, next to the 7 series. But it doesn't matter how expensive the vehicle is. I was talking about how the car itself is built, detailed, and finished. You can't drive a price tag, but you can drive quality.

Jacob Fraser
765

hp/liter means nothing.... if you are talking about efficency then hp/unit of fuel burned is the only thing that matters... as well as for performance hp/engine weight for example the rx7 rs( japan only i believe) had a 1.3 that makes 275ish hp, engine weighs roughly 450-500 pounds... gets 15 mpg tops a corvette ls1 5.7 weighs 500-550 pounds, 350 hp, and gets roughly 25-30 mpg which one is more efficient... the 1.3 that weighs the same as the 5.7, gets 75 less hp, and half the mileage, or the ls1.... and dont forget that version of the rotary was extremely rare and couldn't pass emissions in north America, while the ls1 was about as common as dirt

Jacob Fraser
765

he probably thinks mazda pick ups are better then fords as well :P

Sean Ochosky
55

who needs a Hummer for basic driving though. Seriously. Its nothing but a vehicle to make up for short-comings.

Jacob Fraser
765

of course its got less torque and mileage... the tdi is a diesel :S ive seen full ton trucks getting 30 mpg highway....

Jacob Fraser
765

they wont go bankrupt, if they were about to lose everything they can legally get rid of thier unions, which is by far the reason they are losing money.... they are paying workers an average of $80 an hour, plus paying HUGE fees out to retirees, along with minimum hours they have to pay to the union workers, all the import companies on the other hand... pay an average of 50ish an hour and have a much smaller retiree drain

Aldo Valdovinos
5

well, I haven't seen americans developing diesel cars beside from super duty pick-up trucks.. it's time for a change!! the environment is crying for it why do you think most of the cars in europe are diesel?

Sean Ochosky
55

You should try looking up Nissan GT-R or even GT-R Spec-V. That vehicle is a car that could run laps around the vette anyday, and still cost around the same. And yes it could run laps around it...I'm not talking about a race in a straight line

Aldo Valdovinos
5

same thing.. the 2.0 gives you 45 mpg and the 3.4 gives you roughly 20 and still is less powerful 2.0 is lighter and more powerful.. that's what I meant

Sean Ochosky
55

My 1990 300ZX Twin Turbo has a nicer designed and finished interior than most of chryslers vehicles today. And most people would actually prefer soft touch materials (especially on the dash) in their vehicles. Not only do they look better, feel better, not scratch like hard cheap Matel like plastic materials do, but they create a better sealed mold around other items built into the dash. hence, NO HUGE GAPS!!

Jacob Fraser
765

its something to do with the politics of the emissions, i have no idea why. most diesels put out the same if not less greenhouse gasses then gasoline engines, but they produce more smog

Aldo Valdovinos
5

actually, I don't know why they don't begin. this crisis is the perfect time: better economy, less emissions (the world won't stand much more years of petrol burning gasoline V8's) and beside acceleration they only have advantages and come on.. if you're not racing why would you need to accelerate fast in which case you can get a VW GTI or something that's also a super good not that expensive car. SERIOUSLY guys it's time for a change

Aldo Valdovinos
5

you're talking about american truck diesels, not about the high-tech and greatly developed german diesel engines. They've been developing them for a long time. If a VW 2.0 TDI meets the european union emission standards and an american SUV doesn't it means something. They have to put european engines on them in order to pass the regulations. I know that because I've lived there

Aldo Valdovinos
5

for example the engine of my own.. if you don't hear you know.. the typical sound of the diesel engine you don't even notice it is. when you start it, you won't see any black smoke as many people think believe me

Jacob Fraser
765

their are lots more factors then just the engines as well, the weigh and aerodynamics of the car are more important then the size or hp of a car. but some cars get better mileage then others, the mazda renisis 1.3 gets worse mileage then the chevy ls1 5.7... when they say imports are better... are they not imports... or how about the fact toyota sold a caviler which was a chevy with the toyota name glued on or that gm is the best selling car in china, and overall for 76 years... how about ford being the 2nd top seller in europe, nearly a million more sold then honda, or ford being the top seller in Britain, opel being #2... and guess who owns opel... in australia... guess what...its the commodore... also known as the pontiac g8, and used to be a sister car to the lumina i beleive random fact the ford model t got around 20 mpg!, and ive heard of a modified one ( in the 30's) that got nearly 40, how cars have improved eh :P

A Facebook user
35

i agree.. and now a day they make cars out of this cheap sheet metal. not the good old days with heavy duty sheet metal, and i dont think american cars are build bad...there are more imports that are peices of crap conpared to american cars. i know people that say they love ther GM car or truck and than there people that dont like GM, and live for imports. and hands down they own motorcycles lol

Jacob Fraser
765

no modern stock diesel smokes at all to the eye, but they do put out more soot then a gasoline engine, its just the nature of the fuel. even huge transfer truck diesels do not smoke now, in 1997( i think) they had a huge change with their emissions standards, but diesels last so long their are sill engines that are 50 years old running... they smoke... and even the modified diesels that do smoke a lot under high load will not smoke when under light loads, the run all the fuel they can to make maximum power, which leads to an incomplete burn, which makes very sooty exhaust

Brian Connolly
15

Americans love to have their cars look cool, verses having a car that has great gas mileage, or leaves less of a carbon footprint.

Aldo Valdovinos
5

yeah, well you see opel and ford (in britain) are not really american cars their name is american-owned but they are british and german engineers who designs them, now the best sellers of chevrolet are compact cars wich are opel (european) designed.. about ford, you can take the american mondeo (for example) and compare it with the british mondeo and believe me the british is way better and I've seen both. ford is 2nd top seller in europe because they use european engines and platforms such as the european galaxy, which is a family car and uses VW sharan's platform AND engine and yes, american cars have improved over time, but so have the european ones and way faster.. about honda I don't like japanese cars either I just LOVE european cars

A Facebook user
35

first off American's have cars great on gas!! granted there are not alot of them but there is still some out there. Ford has a diseal car that is not sold in America that great around 70 miles per gallon (thats what i heard). but they cant sell it in the states becuase we have a harder emission test for cars than other places, and by us making the emissions harder to pass we are making a smaller carbon footprint. so dont hold anything to american cars becuase of gas mileage.

Aldo Valdovinos
5

well, that's a bit selfish, isn't it? haven't all those people noticed the situation in which we are?, in the other hand, don't tell me a chevy impala looks better than a VW passat and that's just an example.. by the way they are in the same price range if you were wondering

Aldo Valdovinos
5

diesels' emissions of greenhouse gases are way minor than gas engines'.. or how is it that european diesel engines do pass american regulations? VW Group sells a lot of diesel cars in the states, that's not an excuse

A Facebook user
35

another reason you just cant conpare imports to american cars is becuase imports are all dam plastic.. its retarded... my freind owns a 2008 nissan sentra and when u open the door in the side skirt you can see styrofoam in it.. what is up with that.

Aldo Valdovinos
5

besides, I've read that the whole european union's carbon footprint is less than the states' and not only in car emissions, that was an overall statistic.. consider also that you're talking about 27 countries vs. 1 and as big as the states might be, the european union has almost twice the states' population

Aldo Valdovinos
5

totally agree with you I HATE japanese cars because of that an because they copy it almost all from EUROPEAN cars which are the ones I love and totally prefer over americans

A Facebook user
35

i understand that. but what im saying is they cant make the emissions from that ford car good enuf for the states emissoins... jetta is a different thing they cant make there engine work with the emissions. and its not an excuse im just pointing out something. there are many gas cars that are good on gas made buy America

Aldo Valdovinos
5

and yes I hate that they not only copy, they make them cheaper (with super low quality materials) and because of that they sell more... it's a shame, but that's how this industry works...

Byron Chiu
15

Overall design of American cars, I guess they just seem to think about the pleasure and the goodies in their cars than real-world facts. Also, American automakers are thinking as if the auto industry is a capitalist business, not an honorable service to the public that emphasizes on the satisfaction of customers and the companies' blue-collar employees.

Aldo Valdovinos
5

yeah, there are good american cars, very few, but there are still some out there you're totally right.. but their european direct equivalent is way better just look at some comparisons and you'll see what I mean

A Facebook user
35

you could have read it from over all carbon foot print. as in very thing thing not just cars. and i think in europe there are alot more people that use bikes... i could be wrong, and if you think i dont like european cars your wrong i dont mind them... its the japs cars i dont care for.

Aldo Valdovinos
5

me either!! they're just cheap copies of good cars, aren't they? but sadly they're slowly taking over the american market

Aldo Valdovinos
5

and you're right they use bikes a lot more.. I was just making a point, I regret coming back from there... I love european lifestyle

Joel Beeby
95

Because they are for North Americans (or American'ts) Also, this is a stupid question and you had probably answered it for yourself before you posted it.

A Facebook user
35

to me it seems like that america is making the biggest push to hybirds, and electric cars. the only problem is they are charging way to much for these hybirds. i think it is the chevy Volt that you can go 40 miles before useing 1 drop of gas. compared to other imports you used over 1 gallon of gas... that car would be great for people that drive short distances in a day.

Aldo Valdovinos
5

yeah, it'd be great

Chase Sutherland
3,985

nobody needs it. nobody needs a lincoln navigator or 300C either. people would basically either need only a truck for hauling or a prius. nobdoy needs anything more. i want a hummer on 26s because its awesome.

Chase Sutherland
3,985

lol yeah it beats the base version. do your research then talk. if you put it in the "race" mode it voids the warranty and the tranny goes out which is 20 large to fix. have fun with that. without the "race" mode its even with the Z06 vette which is the same price range. put it against the ZR model and it gets spanked all over the place

Adam Morgan
4,205

As the question is taking off topic turns every few post I'd like to point out that this downturn is very possibly the greatest thing to happen to the US auto industry in the long run. Think about it, they're able to downsize and streamline, keeping the best workers and equipment from across the country and redistributing them, which will end with more efficient production lines. They are reducing the strength of the unions and are able compete in labor costs against their competition. They are shrinking the size of the disgustingly over populated dealer market They are reducing internal competition and concentrating sales into more specifics markets which will hopefully lead to higher margins. They have a ridiculous amount of research developments in the past few years that will soon be able to be implemented efficiently... Chevy alone has made huge strides in diesel tech and engine efficiency in general... compression sense ignition, streamline manifold design for diesel, improved DPI... It's my understanding that GM has been funding research to implement static stir welding into large scale production for several years and it should be nearly viable at this point. (Sorry ford fans all I've heard from them is that they Now if they'd get it through their head that their chassis need to go on a diet, then they'd truly be in a position to hit the ground running when the market picks up. They have problems, every brand has 'em, but they have an excellent opportunity to reduce theirs. Also would like to note it's a chance for the upstarts, of whom Loremo is my favorite. Go tiny 80mpg diesel car.

Chase Sutherland
3,985

lol audi vehicles are notorious for having high maintenance costs from constant problems. lincolns run forever without a single problem. and transmissions i dont know much about. i dont build them or work on them and im guessing neither do you. do you have any data sheets proving the longevity or either model? im guessing you dont have that either. but based on previous models i would put money on the lincolns tranmission running longer. and the lincoln is more of a luxury car than a sport luxury like the A4

Aldo Valdovinos
5

maybe lincoln's transmissions and engines can be longer lasting but what? are you going to have your car more than 15 years? I recently sold a 1998 A8 I got on december, 1997 and guess what? everything was still perfectly working.. it never gave me problems and the most I payed for service was 500 on one of the last ones because they had to change the engine support system and give major mantainance to the brakes which is normal in whatever car after more than 10 years of use. What do you say of that car having more technology than a 2009 lincoln MKZ, anyway? I only got rid of it because I wanted a car that was more fuel economic due to this crisis we're living.. but I LOVED it!!! german cars get old with class looking as jewels.. no one could believe it was '97, in the other hand when I see a '97 lincoln I can't believe it's not older! if you know what I mean... besides, audi is not sport luxury either, there are some sport audi models but the A4 I meant in the other comment isn't port and neither was my A8 they're more of mid-size and large executive sedans respectively and MKZ is a mid-size executive sedan too so they're not different in that

Aldo Valdovinos
5

and please.. before replying google Direct-Shift Gearbox.. I don't work with them but my brother does.. he was part of the developing team in fact and I know exactly how it works.. it's so good the fastest car in the world (Bugatti Veyron) uses it to optimize its power and fuel consumption..

Bilal Blaik
35

they arent

Adam Morgan
4,205

I hate to tell you mate, chances are an American car won't have a DCT for many years to come. They are fairly unreliable when working perfect, but under neglect or hard use they are an accident waiting to happen. Simply put they require precise timing in shifts of hydraulic pressure to engage and disengage the clutch packs. Under neglect this will stop happening fast or in worst case scenario the disengaging clutch will not disengage before the secondary engages. That equals a catastrophic failure... I remember when using them in race cars, they had a habit of grenadeing if the car went off the track because of the vibration. Imagine nicking a pot-hole and your gear box blows... Not something you exactly want in a daily driver. Ohh and the Veyron isn't the fastest car in the world... Ironically the American SSC Ultimate Aero is... It's drive train is a variant on a GM design... ... This isn't to say DCT's don't have a future, but Americans tend to design cars to be neglected. But in more exotic cars where care is expected they will most certainly become popular. I'm personally a fan of the PDK Porsche uses or the Borg-Warner unit in the GTR (Although they decided to push it beyond it's abilities and that caused issues with it's reliability)

Khalid Zineddin
55

Heh, you obviously have NO experience with American cars of before the mid-1970's. Ever heard of the Plymouth Valiant? Or what about the Slant 6? In fact, the 225-ci (3.7L) slant-6 (produced from 1959 to 1988, pretty long time) had one of the lowest specific fuel consumptions of ANY automobile engine ever made. You NEVER hear of 36 MPG highway from a 3.7L 6-cylinder these days. Don't forget also that at the time, American cars were very popular with the wealthy in other parts of the world and many were exported to countries such as Brazil, Great Britain, Germany, South Africa, Australia, and as of late, even JAPAN! I could go on all day with this stuff. Americans in the 50's and 60's were hard-working, proud people (unlike today where everybody's lazy and thinks America is ruining the world, which admittedly it kind of is) and their automobiles showed it. It was when they started second-guessing themselves about everything and national pride gave way to greed and laziness that American cars started to suck. After driving my 1970 Plymouth, every other car I drive (even trucks) feels flimsy and like it's going to break if I go a little too fast or turn a little to sharply. There's nothing more solid and secure-feeling than a classic American car from the 50's or 60's.

Khalid Zineddin
55

That's another very good point. I know Chrysler has been designing a revolutionary new line of V-6 engines since the early 2000's and is set to come out in 2010 or 2011. They also have the cool EV line of vehicles which nobody else can really compare to (A minivan, a Jeep, and a sports car!), along with a bunch of other amazing new technologies that could change the auto industry in a very positive way.

Jim Watson
5

Because they're not German.

Jeff Lomele
5

why are japanese cars so ugly? theres no replacement for displacement. more air and fuel = more power. theres a reason why dragsters use v8s and not 4 cyls

Sean Ochosky
55

comparing the plastics used in a domestic to an import is no comparison. There are WAY more plastics used in Domestics today, especially cheap plastics that scratch very easily

Cody Richard III
55

Haha ever heard of Power to weight ratio's? ... turbo ep3 builds run 10-11's all the time.. and their mods etc costs a fraction of all that money you'd be putting into trying to make a heavy v8 move at that those trap times.. And bout the looks? you make not like the way they look but that 4cylndr just put few car lengths on ya :P

Jin Hoo
135

Hahaha its a catch phrase now! "Theres no replacement for displacement". All this flaming makes for a really entertaining read. And yes, its power to weight ratio as well as how much power the car can handle. People have churned out 1300bhp on a Supra but obviously its not very driveable with that kind of power. What are you going to do with a V8? Tune out even more horses and make it worse? Besides, we're not talking about power here, save it for another thread.

Mike DeShaw
25

Because of poorly asked questions....

Johan Veenstra
0

I personally say its a mattar of taste. I mean look, a jeep or hummer has to be boxy. A dodge challenger or charger have to have a muscle and powerfull look. American cars represent power, not beauty in my opinion. If you want a beauty car i say you need to buy a european car, if you want an agressive car buy an american one, and if you want some random car buy an asian car :P

Alex Front
0

i agree, american cars are "muscly" and "shocking", while european cars are beautiful, and thought-provoking, which basically means that american cars are adolescent, and european cars are refined and mature, it's all just part of the feedback loop that the majority of the american population buy into time and time again, basically just a bunch of hicks up in the mountains of west virginia who like to think they're better than someone else because they know deep down inside just how inferior they actually are...

Alex Front
0

i agree, american cars are "muscly" and "shocking", while european cars are beautiful, and thought-provoking, which basically means that american cars are adolescent, and european cars are refined and mature, it's all just part of the feedback loop that the majority of the american population buy into time and time again, basically just a bunch of hicks up in the mountains of west virginia who like to think they're better than someone else because they know deep down inside just how inferior they actually are...

Chase Sutherland
3,985

i shuold have been more specific. i meant lnogevity n the amount of miles it can rack up. i have a 2005 chrysler 300C and i have already put 112k miles on it. i drive it a lot. ive done only regualr maintenance on the car and i beat on it nonstop because the hemi is just flat out fun. some peolpe drive their cars a lot and rack up miles fast. my old roomate had an 02 A4 and once he hit 125k miles it had tons of mechanical issues and he babied the car. that lincoln drivetrain will out last any audi drivetrain with ease

Chase Sutherland
3,985

umm anybody who can turbo a 4 cylinder can also turbo an 8. making your 4 look slow again. 4s can be fast but 8s will always be faster

Chase Sutherland
3,985

lol adolescent and mature? so alex tell us. what type of car do you drive?

Colin Salazar
265

i don't think it's that they're so badly designed, but rather they're poorly assembled by people who make too much money and don't give a sh|t about the quality of product they put out. Look at GM's preparations for bankruptcy announced yesterday. UAW and CAW are the major reason for the automakers debts and continuous finacial downfalls.

Colin Salazar
265

i don't think it's that they're so badly designed, but rather they're poorly assembled by people who make too much money and don't give a sh|t about the quality of product they put out. Look at GM's preparations for bankruptcy announced yesterday. UAW and CAW are the major reason for the automakers debts and continuous financial downfalls.

Luke Smith
5

True true. Funny Chrysler might be bailed out by Fiat, of all people

Christina Stafford
5

if you dont like the way they are desgined then get the hell outta here! duh!

Bryan Keates
15

Ok chase you must be blind that 300C interior looks like shit. The honda is way more refined.

Chase Sutherland
3,985

ha ok why dont you tell me what about the 300C interior looks like shit. go ahead and elaborate on this for me. have you actually ever even been in one? everything is so simple to use and easily accessible. everythings clean cut. the wood is a nice california walnut that actually looks really nice. so please tell me what looks so bad about it

Marcus Binger
0

u gotta be shittn me ever heard of a Corvette dumbass

Sean Ochosky
55

But a car like the 300C still makes more sense for the average joe. A navigator is a beast, but in the city with a big family, it would make sense. There are no real uses for a Hummer in an city, unless the owner plans on taking it off road on a regular basis. Put simply, its the most unnecessary vehicle on the market today. It makes sense that they're having such a hard time selling.

Sean Ochosky
55

Do my research? HA! Clearly you have no true understanding of what was occurring with the GT-R. Putting the vehicle into the R mode was creating issues because the technology wasn't being used properly by its owners. The system is operated by putting the vehicle into the drive position, placing one foot on the brake, and only giving the gas a slight bit of gas. When doing this, the computer automatically pushes the revs to hold at 4 grand. It can be over ridden, which was the actual issue, where people (not following direction) floored the gas which increased the rev limit by default. When they released the brake it put a much larger load onto the tranny. The large majority of Press given on this issue was in-accurate. So it wasn't the launch control at all, because the system is de- activated once the accelerator is fully depressed. Using the Launch control does not IN ANY WAY void the manufacturers warranty. Its a feature that was included into the vehicles design for use by consumers. Nissan said they would not warranty any transmissions that were damaged due to false use, however, because so many people did not accurately opperate the GT-R, they decided to cover the costs either fully or partially for those who did happen to wreck them. Its the main reason Nissan bumped the system in the new model year, but still has all the R modes. They also placed a rev limiter in certain modes to further prevent any possible issues that could occur. I don't think i'm in need of doing any more research. Where did you come up with this "even" idea with the ZO6? Yes its in the same price range, and maybe the ZO6 can give the GT-R a run for its money at the start line, but as soon as it comes to handling the corners with speed and agility, the corvette falls flat compared to the Nissan. And my response to the ZR would be the upcoming GT-R Spec-V. Please, think first before asking me to do my research. I'm full of info most people wouldn't know shit about

Chase Sutherland
3,985

oh i agree its unnecessary. but i really want one to tow my boat. right now every time i need to take my boat i need to use my fathers big f250 to move it around. plus the navigator makes no sense. mine got thirteen mpgs hwy miles with the 22s and city was much worse. there are much more fuel efficient 7 seaters out there for city driving and large families. the 300C is also a terrible city car. city mileage i only get about 12 mpgs too with all the stop and go. but hwy is good i can pull 24 mpgs with the hemi. hummer gets about the exact same mileage as a 98-02 lincoln navigator actually just to let you know but they pull a lot more and go go more places too. they get at most 4 mpgs worse than a new navigator. its more like 2-3 on most cases though.

Chase Sutherland
3,985

ha so you admit that nissan isnt covering those people who used the R mode? yeah if thats the case then you cant validate using something that nissan can determine as being innapropriate use. if it voids the warranty then you might as well chip the vette to void its warranty and make it even. and now you want to comapre a car that doesnt exist yet to one that does? hmm well lets jsut compare the 2020 vette in this then. that doesnt make any sense. and they dont even know if the spec-v will even make it across the pacific yet. and without R mode (which nissan can consider voiding the warranty on) the gt-r is even with the vette. check the stats on the skid pad and such on a Z06. check the braking on it. i bet you know nothing about the car and what it can do.

Sean Ochosky
55

I don't know what you were reading....but i clearly stated that using the R modes do not void the warranty. The issue is not with the Launch control at all. The instructions are on all GT-R manuals, including the courtesy card given to people with general "HOW-TO" information at the time of purpose. Let me repeat myself once again though. The "R mode/Launch control" is automatically disabled once the accelerator is pushed passed the sticking point (point with slightly greater tension). This is made clear in manuals. People didnt read this or were interested in seeing what the car could do with the revs all the way up to 7 grand. That was the issue. And i also said Nissan was covering those who were stupid enough to use the system in-correctly either partially or fully covering it. Thats pretty nice if you ask me. The GT-R does exist buddy. It has been through its final tests, had its times recorded on the Nurburgring, and the brochures have already been printed out for the Japanese Market. Lets throw some numbers down for you. Chevrolet Corvette ZO6: Base $: $72,123 Braking 70-0 MPH (ft): 159 Nissan GT-R: Base $: $70, 475 Braking 70-0 MPH (ft): 155 The vette may have the upper hand at the starting line like i said earlier, with a smaller LB per HP ratio, but the GT-R still outperforms the ZO6 on the track. If you don't believe me, try looking up the August 2008 issue of Car and driver. They compare The ZO6 to the viper SRT-10 ACR and the Porsche 911 GT2. The Nissan beat all the others in the end, and surprisingly enough, they ranked the vette last in their tests cause of the soggier controls, jittery brakes, and unsophisticated handling dynamics.

Sean Ochosky
55

I meant the GT-R spec-V does exist*

Adam Morgan
4,205

Umm... base price on a GTR is $80,790? http://www.nissanusa.com/gt-r/ And the issue wasn't the drivers is that they mated a transmission designed for a max of 400 ft-lbs to a more powerful engine than it could handle... You can try to blame the driver, but everyone who saw the original specs from Borg-Warner knows what the issue is. And 4 ft on braking is nothing, especially when you consider the the GTR comes with better tires stock Goodyear Eagle F1 :-\ They are fairly comparable cars. GM skipped on interior quality while Nissan sacrificed reliability for performance... So the choice is reliability or refinement... I could care less about interior quality myself as I have a tendency to rip half the interior out of any sporty car I drive, but that's just me.

Sean Ochosky
55

That price is for the 2010 Nissan GT-R. The testing was done on a 2009, which had the base price of 70+ grand. I'm not too sure where you got the info on the tranny only being able to handly 400ft-lbs, but i can assure you thats definitely not the case. The GT-R was in development for close to 8 years for the mechanics aspect, and they did hundreds of tests. If the tranny couldn't handle it, they wouldnt have put it into the vehicle. And if that was the case, the tranny's would have been getting screwed up under acceleration at higher RPM's, and not at launch.

Chase Sutherland
3,985

man youre just flat dumb. its like talking to a 4 year old who says "nuh uh". go to nissan.com and look at the msrp for the GT-R. its $80k not $70k. like i said, DO YOUR RESEARCH before tlakjing out of your ass. and nissan isnt covering those people who as you say used it the car incoorectly. type it in to google. look at the claims. they arent covering the tranny. you can keep saying it but the fact is they are NOT. everybody here knows it but you.

Chase Sutherland
3,985

youre right the prototype does exist. its not available until 2010 though. that means its not on the market. lol wow

Adam Morgan
4,205

I'm getting the 400 ft-lbs from the article Borg-Warner put out on their creation to SAE that was in the powertrain update a couple years ago while the car was in development. I think it metric they state 550Nm max while they currently run 590Nm through it... And the it's shock loading and torque that kill a tranny not rpms and highway speeds... If it dies at highway speeds you can bet on lubrication or wear issues being the culprit.

Chase Sutherland
3,985

i got the 28-29 mpgs from an owner of one in my hometown. its what he gets. if you dont beat it they get that high. drive it hard an it drops. the first full size hybrid suv wasnt an escalade either so try again. it was a chevy tahoe. my car has no shudders when it activates and deactivates any cylinders. the hemi is built as well as any engine on the market and now youre saying its ok to compare an $80k car to any other car thats in its "class"? that makes no sense. you cant compare an $80k car to a $25k car. its pretty obvious which one is better. and btw a convertable 6-series base price is more expensive than any 7-series base price. the coupes are a $2k difference and the 6-series resale value is higher.

Chase Sutherland
3,985

its no use in trying to talk to this guy. he is right in his mind no matter what. you showed him direct evidence that the GT-R is not $70k but he still argues. he must be a 14 year old or something with all his "nuh uh" logic. he probably doesnt even have a car.

Joseph Rota
255

hey don't knock the brakes and suspension on gm trucks, my uncle lives on a dirt road and when we hop in his GMC sierra it's smooth going down the road, compared to my parents' piece of shit potiac montana minivan. Gm makes great trucks and suv's (since they are body on frame). but u are right about dealer prices, they will rape u at every chance they get, the local chev dealership usually marks up their wholesale prices by 110%.

Syed Rehan
35

i loe american cars.some of these cars have pre-historic suspension but hey if everything is computer controlled then to me the drivin skills of a person equal to null.

Syed Rehan
35

i love american cars.some of these cars have pre-historic suspension but hey if everything is computer controlled then to me the drivin skills of a person equal to null.

Joseph Rota
255

hey adam u obviously don't understand how bad it actually is for everyone, as my dad was laid off from his job at a diesel truck manufacturing plant, what is hurting the enconomy more and more is the layoffs: reducing the amount of working people with money to spend. so let me point out a few things; do management and corprate positions need to be making over $500,000 a year? NO!, corperate jets, finally they got rid of the retched waste of money, NOT enough money put into R&D, and successful R&D isn't implemented fast enough! (2010 for the chevy volt, we need it now!), hybrid vehicles; the damn things are still to expensive for most new car buyers to consider them, and they're weak (toyota sequoia hybrid towing capacity 3500lbs, regular toyota sequoia 5000lbs towing), the lack of quality parts and material used in production (Chevrolet) also a diesel option should be avalible for luxury vehicles and all trucks (light and full-size) i'd like to see a 3.5L turbo diesel in a ford ranger. but you are right about the unions because they always want more and more making it harder for some places to make it a worthwhile business. and unions also protect the workers too much, i've heard of stories of people sitting on the job not doing work for most of the day and still getting paid for it (and neither do u tell the manager about it cuz then ur a fricken rat) and it's not often enough that they get fired. i also like the point about cars going on a diet, but then what is going to be used for some of the metal parts that are going to get tossed? plastic bumpers are expensive, weak and retarded. and ur last line "Go tiny 80mpg diesel car." i think it's a good idea as long as the car is comfortable to drive without the feeling of being in a garbage compactor.

Jin Hoo
135

Hmm.. that's not a really fair thing to say. I think technological advances in cars have saved quite a few lives on the road. And have shortened our lap timings quite a fair bit. It still takes skill to get a good lap, but with less worries and less strain on the car.

Josh Haugh
0

man. so you'd rather have a car thats "beautiful" with the sound of a weed eater than a car that you know was built right?

swurzer
10

I have a few things to chime in here... I would say that American cars are not engineered nearly as well as the Japanese or German counterparts. It's not even close. I really don't think the two are in the same universe. I've worked on a LOT of cars over the years, and I have run into a lot of head-scratchers, when trying to repair a component. Not exotic, unusual stuff, but simple things that need regular maintenance/replacement. It seems to me that US manufacturers do no put a lot of thought or good engineering into how a car will be maintained/repaired. I don't think it goes to far to call it borderline incompetent design. Some recent examples... I have seen cases where almost the entire top of the engine has to come off to replace the thermostat (Buick Rendezvous), or the entire steering knuckle has to be removed to replace a wheel hub (Mercury Sable). In general, it seems that the US manufacturers put far more effort into styling. and way too little effort into serviceability. This is nothing new. But come on US engineers... you can do a lot better... I don't know if it's a matter of complacency at the US design houses, or corporate/management interference, but it is obvious that quality engineering is not a priority. Working on Japanese or German cars is a breeze by comparison. You can see IMMEDIATELY that foresight was used in determining the location of components and fasteners, etc... It is obvious to the well-trained eye. I'm an electrical engineer myself, and some of the obvious mistakes in engineering. I would be ashamed to let a product like that go out the door. What I've seen on US cars makes me shudder sometimes. It really is about lack of attention to detail, and having a goal of doing a good job. I've been in the engineering industry for 20+ years, so I know how things work.... I once heard an engineering director say that getting the product to market quickly is an important part of quality engineering. What total B.S. We all groaned on the inside, but it is an example of how management can come to view engineers.... When corporate management views engineers and quality engineering as an impediment to sales, you end up with what we have coming out of Detroit.... This is the elephant in the room that needs to be acknowledged.

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